Earlier today, Diane Ravitch drew attention to American education's growing faceoff between non-educators and educators. She writes: How did American education fall so effortlessly into the control of Know Nothings from the world of business, law, and politics? Now, John Merrow releases a podcast with NYC's past and present Chancellors (moderated by Jay Mathews) that squarely hits on this philosophical divide. Some highlights:

*Joel sums up his job with a song: "Give a little, take a little, let your poor heart break a little…"

* Joel identifies leadership and attracting new and different teachers into teaching as his top two improvement initiatives. He questions whether the principal should primarily be an instructional leader. Rudy disagrees, saying, "the core of this business is how children learn."

* Joel and Rudy spar on the role of charter schools in urban ed reform.

Definitely worth a listen.